00:42.3
Variation of the thing.
00:43.4
No, I mean, the thing is this.
00:46.1
May mga iba dyan, nung nasa padero sila, nasa puesta sila, they thought na ano na sila, superhero na sila forever and they could do whatever they wanted.
00:55.9
So, katulad ng sinabi natin kanina, katulad ng sinabi natin kanina, taluan natin ito ah.
01:01.9
Katulad ng sinabi natin kanina, we are all totally for a war against crime, against drugs, against corruption.
01:09.9
Kaya na, sabi ko eh, yung isa pa rin hindi natin ginawa nung time na yan, kung galit na galit si Tatay Digong sa krimen,
01:15.4
bakit yung mga batas na laban sa corruption, yung mga batas laban sa, alam mo na, yung mga big time na mga katrapuan ay hindi nila ginawang,
01:25.8
mas strict, diba?
01:27.6
At yun nga yung tragedy eh.
01:29.4
When you raise the right questions in terms of, you know, we have to deal with corruption, we have to deal with crime,
01:36.3
pero yung solution mo is actually worse, diba?
01:40.5
In a sense that, parang lumala pa yung problema.
01:43.5
Because one of the worst legacies of yung war on drugs na bara-bara is that you undermine any attempt at creating a semblance of rule of law.
01:51.8
Because kung na-damage mo na yung mga institution ng isang bansa, na-damage mo na,
01:55.6
na-damage mo na yung mga institution ng isang bansa, na-damage mo na yung mga institution ng isang bansa, na-damage mo na yung mga institution ng isang bansa,
01:55.8
kung na-damage yung tiwala ng tao sa kapulisan, sa law enforcement,
01:59.2
kung na-damage yung tiwala ng mga investors na safe yung bansa mo,
02:03.7
ang laki ng cost na ito sa isang bansa.
02:06.7
Worse than that, ay itong allegations of tens of thousands of extrajudicial killings.
02:13.0
At ang masaklap dyan, alam natin, maraming sa mga biktima ng EJK,
02:20.4
ito yung mga voiceless, ito yung mga poorest of the poor Filipinas,
02:23.5
ito yung mga tao dun sa mga pinaka...
02:25.6
You know, either marginalized sectors ng society,
02:29.5
hindi ito yung mga tao na, to use the Habermasian term,
02:32.6
may communicative competence, no?
02:34.7
In order to make their story heard properly by the people, no?
02:38.5
Ito yung mga voiceless people.
02:40.6
So, that's why, that's why hindi siguro na-appreciate ng karamihan ng ating mga kababayan
02:47.2
yung depth ng humanitarian catastrophe and human rights apocalypse, no?
02:53.6
Na meron tayo nung panahon na yan.
02:55.6
Kasi parating mga kwento lang nang pinapakinggan ng ating mga kababayan.
02:60.0
Ay yung, either yung propaganda na isang banda, isang grupo na,
03:03.8
oh, ito na, magiging Mexico na tayo, narco-state na tayo, which is total nonsense,
03:08.3
because anyone who knows anything about real narco-states, Colombia, Mexico,
03:13.1
and tignan mo yung advice ng President ng Colombia to Duterte noong 2016 na minura-mura lang ni Digong.
03:19.0
Kung basayan nyo yung advice niya, kahit nagiging narco-state ka,
03:22.3
hindi ka dapat babara-bara yung solusyon mo.
03:25.6
Sistematik ka, because the medicine will kill the patient if the medicine is based on dumb diagnostics, right?
03:34.0
Alam ng lahat ng tao yan, diba?
03:36.3
If you don't have proper diagnostics, you're just gonna make the thing worse.
03:39.9
So first of all, make sure alam mo yung nangyari, and then siguraduin mo yung solusyon mo
03:43.9
will make the problem go away or at least mitigate the problem.
03:47.4
So that's why in public policy, parang sa medicine yan.
03:50.6
First, based on evidence and data, you identify what is the real problem,
03:54.5
and then, accordingly, you look at the range of possible solution,
03:58.2
and then you empirically assess kung etong solusyon na yan ay gumagana or hindi.
04:02.4
At yun yung fundamental problem natin doon sa war on drugs dati na it was not based on an evidence-based approach to public policy.
04:09.9
It was based on, for the lack of better term,
04:12.6
bara-bara political will.
04:14.6
Yung mga tatay, paranggay-style.
04:17.6
I mean, yung ginawa ni Digong baka gumana sa Davao, which is highly questionable because many people question the means that he used.
04:24.4
you don't need to burn down the hen house to get the fried chicken.
04:29.4
Kung may mga manok yan,
04:31.4
gusto mong gumawa ng fried chicken, hindi mo kailangan sunugin yung buong ano nila para kumuha ng fried chicken.
04:36.8
Kunin mo lang yung manok na yan, and then surgically deal with it, and then lutuin mo sa oven.
04:41.2
You can still get the fried chicken without having to burn down the whole hen house.
04:45.2
So the means poisons the end kung bara-bara at dumb yung approach.
04:52.2
So, again, yan ang problema.
04:55.2
Na parang sinasabi nila, pag critical ka doon sa drug war na yan, ay, ikaw eh, gusto mo sa mga drogista, gusto mo sa mga kriminal.
05:04.4
Evidence-based approach matters.
05:07.4
21st century na po tayo.
05:09.4
Hindi tayo sa medieval time.
05:11.4
Pero ang problema natin is, sometimes gusto natin leader, yung parang leader ng isang 12th century medieval village.
05:18.4
Hindi pwede ganun yung approach natin.
05:20.4
We have to be very systematic.
05:22.4
We have to be very...
05:24.4
scientific in that approach.
05:25.4
Now, having said all of that, kanina mo, interview tayo sa Monocle Magazine sa London.
05:30.4
I-repost ko yan naman ngayon.
05:32.4
Kung saan, tinanongin sa atin yung situation sa Philippines pagdating sa ICC.
05:37.4
Kasi, fina-follow ito ng mga ibang bansa eh.
05:39.4
Nakikita nila talaga na things are moving.
05:42.4
So, ang ina-explain ko na pagdating kay BBM,
05:46.4
pagdating kay BBM, obviously, ugas kamay siya.
05:50.4
Kasi, you know, ayon yung mga banggan, yung kabilang grupo, diba?
05:53.4
So, sasabihin niya, we're not gonna lift a finger.
05:55.4
But at the same time, they also did not lift a finger to stop yung investigations na nangyari
06:01.4
and almost concluded by the International Criminal Court.
06:04.4
So, confirmado na ngayon. Alam na ng lahat.
06:07.4
It's not even an open secret.
06:09.4
It's a confirmed fact na the ICC was able to gather all the evidence and data,
06:14.4
to talk to the witnesses.
06:15.4
And I'm sure, katulad ng sinabi natin, yung usapan natin ni Sir Ronald Llamas,
06:21.4
yung mga investigators na yan, hindi naman sila bara-bara na pupunta dyan.
06:26.4
Kung alam nila, wala silang protection.
06:28.4
So, there should have been a certain degree of protection from the law enforcement agencies
06:32.4
and the relevant agencies sa mga investigators na yan.
06:35.4
Kasi, syempre, sensitive yung ginagawa nila, diba?
06:38.4
At maraming mga involved dyan na may interest na hindi matutuloy itong ISIS na yan.
06:46.4
Because, of course, ang daming, including people from the law enforcement,
06:49.4
a lot of them were involved in the drug war operations, diba?
06:53.4
So, that means, ewan ko doon sa sinasabing na not lifting a finger.
06:58.4
But obviously, may level of protection and safety and reassurance yung mga ICC investigators na yan.
07:04.4
So, that tells you na itong panic mode ng isa dyan, diba?
07:10.4
And sa tingin ko, because siya yung pinakamadrama, kaya kitang kita natin,
07:15.4
Diyos ko, I mean, iniisip ko ngayon,
07:17.4
pag umabot ito sa ICC, yung Juarez-Cuarantufarez, kung umabot ito sa korte,
07:23.4
Ako, ma-imagine mo yung mga drama na gagawin ng iba.
07:26.4
Ayan, kawawa naman daw yung ganito, ganyan-ganyan.
07:29.4
Well, speaking of kawawa, saan yung iniisip nila yung mga kawawang pamilya na biktima ng EJK?
07:38.4
Alam natin, based on the reports, more than 100 children were victims of the EJK.
07:43.4
Not because they were directly, necessarily,
07:47.4
Well, yung kay Keon de los Santos, yes, and a number of other cases,
07:50.4
They directly, kinota lang sila, diba? Alam naman natin yung katotohanan dyan, eh. Buking na buking na eh.
07:55.4
Pero yung iba, nadamay lang kasi yung drug suspect, or kunyaring drug suspect, yung tata, yung nanay,
08:00.4
Yung binaral-baral nila lahat, yun, nadamay yung mga bata.
08:03.4
More than 100 children were killed, and this is the data from 2019 and all.
08:07.4
Sana yung mga yun ang tinanong nila, diba? Yung mga pamilya na apektado.
08:12.4
Alam din natin na, potentially, hindi lang few thousand,
08:16.4
but tens of thousands, because yung PNP mismo, umamin sila, dun sa datos nila few years ago,
08:21.4
na there were, what, 20,000? More than 20,000 deaths under investigations, DUIs.
08:27.4
So, kaya para sa akin, napaka walang kwenta yung argument na mas safe ang Philippines.
08:34.4
Mas safe for who? Paano naging mas safe ang isang bansa kung meron kang 20,000 unexplained deaths?
08:39.4
Homicides, murders, or EJKs, according to some, right? Yun yung problema. Anong?
08:46.4
Anong klaseng pulvoronik na pag-iisip yan na sabihin mo mas safe ka ay wala na mga snatcher.
08:51.4
Kasi, okay lang, pinatay lahat ng mga snatcher.
08:54.4
Like, paano naging mas safe ang isang community sa isang modern era?
08:58.4
Hindi naman tayo siguro medieval or prehistoric, diba? Hindi naman ito year zero, diba?
09:03.4
Or year 1,200. 21st century ito, you don't solve problems by just, you know,
09:08.4
eliminating half of the population. Yung ganyang pag-iisip, doesn't belong to the 21st century.
09:14.4
So, it's... I think...
09:15.4
I'll be honest, one of the hardest questions I had dun sa interview natin kanina sa Monocle Magazine,
09:20.4
I'll try to pause, it was...
09:26.4
Yung mga communities na apektado dito sa EJK, will they come out? Will they speak out?
09:30.4
And will people listen to them? At sabi ko nga, these are the voiceless people.
09:35.4
99.9% tong mga na-victima. Kung binasa niyo yung book ni Patricia Vinalista,
09:40.4
kung tinignan niyo yung mga reports ng different groups, kung tinignan niyo yung mga interviews,
09:44.4
yung mga interviews sa mga tao na alam nila yung nangyayari.
09:47.4
99.9% ng mga tao ay mga itong mga poors of the poor Filipinos na walang political voice, right?
09:54.4
I just sincerely hope there will be more documentaries, more efforts.
09:59.4
I mean, si Pepe Jocno, some of his earliest works, yung Encuentro ba yan, among others,
10:04.4
had to do something about yung EJKs and drug war. I think even yung Davao na cover niya in some of his earlier works eh.
10:12.4
We need, you know, yung parang gumborza style kind of documentaries, talagang highlighted,
10:18.4
where talagang kinakausap mo yung mga biktima, yung mga bata, and you give them voice.
10:23.4
So that yung mga iba na walang puso, yung mga iba na, eh yun ang isa pang problema sa kultura natin eh.
10:30.4
Ang taas ng simpatsya natin sa mga trapo at sa mga mayayaman oligarchs, ganun, pag sila biglang nahihirapan eh,
10:38.4
magdadrama-drama sila, mag-antik-santik sila.
10:40.4
Ang dapat simpatsya natin sa mga trapo at sa mga mayayaman oligarchs, ganun, pag sila biglang nahihirapan eh, magdadrama-drama sila, mag-antik-santik sila.
10:42.4
Ang dapat simpatsya natin ay dun sa mga pinaka mahirap, yung mga pinaka, voiceless, yung mga pinaka nabiktima.
10:48.4
Dapat dun yung simpati natin. Ang problema natin...
10:50.4
O yung iba pang, simpati pang nga nila sa China, eh sa Pilipinas, ayan, which tells you something is going on here.
10:57.4
Eh kawawa naman ng China, huwag natin i-provoke. Parang ganun din yung pag-iisip, diba.
11:01.4
Ang simpatsya mo dun sa mga inakuza na, or hindi lang akuza, diba,
11:07.4
na involved sa mga massive blunderous policies
11:11.4
that cost lives of thousands of thousands,
11:12.4
people. Guys, maawa-awa kayo doon.
11:14.0
Dapat maawa kayo doon sa mga
11:15.9
biktima. Yung mga voiceless people lang walang power.
11:18.2
Kamusta mo? Ayan, makameta.
11:21.7
This is a very grim topic, guys.
11:23.8
And for me nga, kaya nga, may moral crisis
11:26.0
talaga tayo. May moral crisis tayo.
11:27.9
Kasi, tinignan mo talaga kung
11:30.0
tunay kang kristyano, kung nakita mo
11:32.3
yung mensahe ni Jesucristo,
11:33.7
or kahit anong religion ka,
11:35.9
I mean, any Abrahamic religion
11:37.6
or even non-Abrahamic religion,
11:39.3
compassion is fundamental to that.
11:41.5
The golden rule. You don't want others to do to you
11:43.7
what you, you know, don't do to others what you don't
11:45.7
want others to do to you. Di ba yun yung golden rule?
11:49.2
Unless, of course,
11:50.0
medyo crazy kaya sa dumasok
11:51.7
is kaya pangusapan niyan. But, going back to this,
11:54.9
it's a moral crisis.
11:55.9
And we have to come to terms with that.
11:57.6
And one way of coming to terms with that is not to wait
11:59.8
for people to come to terms. You have to
12:02.1
talagang confront people with the facts,
12:04.8
with the horrible facts
12:06.0
na libo-libo sa ating mga kababayan
12:08.6
na pinakamangihirap ay pinatayo
12:10.0
under the most questionable circumstances.
12:12.8
Di ba yung ginawa ka sa Gumburza?
12:14.6
Yun ang hindi ko na, ano, masyado na
12:16.2
emphasize dun sa isang video natin.
12:18.3
Yung kitang-kita niya sa Gumburza, di ba?
12:19.8
Yung parang ginawa sa kanila, yung parang nanlaban, eh.
12:22.5
Pina-plant lang sila, di ba?
12:23.7
Yung reaction ni Zamora,
12:25.4
the ridiculousness of the charges,
12:28.2
and eventually was executed on those ridiculous charges.
12:31.0
Parang ganun yung nangyari sa nanlaban, eh.
12:33.2
Parang yung ginawa kay Padre Zamora, di ba?
12:35.3
How they gamed the system,
12:36.5
how they came up with mumbo-jumbo cases,
12:40.0
the ridiculous impunity of it,
12:41.6
the injustice of it,
12:42.6
the inanity of it, di ba?
12:47.7
there has to be a reckoning with that.
12:49.3
There has to be a reckoning with that.
12:50.9
And there has to be a moral reckoning.
12:53.2
Siyempre, marami naman sa atin,
12:54.7
hindi naman police, hindi naman gobyerno,
12:56.7
hindi naman directly involved,
13:00.5
tingin ba sa atin,
13:01.3
ay mukhang nag-i-enjoy dun sa
13:04.1
nangyaring kababalakan na yan, di ba?
13:06.4
So, those people have to be confronted with the facts.
13:09.1
Ako naman, niniwala ako,
13:10.0
talaga, unfortunately,
13:11.0
they're always gonna be kulto-kulto.
13:13.0
There's always gonna be fanatics.
13:14.8
But they're gonna be a small minority
13:16.8
or at most a small plurality.
13:18.9
But the vast majority of people,
13:20.5
they have to be guided in the right direction.
13:22.3
They have to be reminded of their Christian values,
13:24.9
their fundamental human values.
13:27.9
human rights na politika, eh.
13:30.9
ito yung humanity, eh.
13:32.2
Yung humanity natin.
13:35.5
kung nakita mo yung isang nagpapanig dyan,
13:37.7
nagpapaawa effect and all of that,
13:40.8
tama yung sinasabi ni Trillanes.
13:42.7
Tama yung sinasabi ni Trillanes na talaga,
13:45.6
in the pipelines na itong
13:46.8
ICC Warrant of Arrest.
13:47.9
So, I think this is the difference
13:51.4
kasi si Atty. Carranza,
13:52.9
I see where his skepticism comes from
13:55.5
and he raised some very valid questions
13:59.9
na hindi na-raise ng iba.
14:01.3
I completely also agree na
14:02.5
you shouldn't raise people's expectations unnecessarily.
14:06.3
But I don't think you would see this kind of
14:13.3
kung wala talaga nangyari.
14:14.4
I think something is going on there.
14:16.1
kung ikaw ay si Marcos Jr.,
14:17.6
Anong sabi ni Harry,
14:19.3
ex-human rights lawyer,
14:20.5
mag-uugas ka may yan.
14:22.4
Baka yun nga yung nangyari,
14:25.5
that's why I'm saying,
14:27.8
as much as PBM doesn't want confrontation,
14:30.3
is conflict avoidant,
14:31.8
some sort of clash is gonna happen
14:33.4
if talagang ICC will go forward.
14:37.0
hindi yan marabarang mag-isip.
14:39.0
If they're gonna move ahead,
14:40.0
with warrants of a restaurant
14:41.9
they're gonna make sure,
14:43.8
na may certain degree of compliance
14:46.8
sa government of the Philippines.
14:48.8
And it's very possible
14:49.7
that the ICC will not move forward
14:51.5
unless there's also pressure
14:52.7
from other Western allies and partners
14:54.8
on the president, right?
14:56.9
To do the right thing.
14:58.9
To do the right thing
14:59.6
and move in the right direction.
15:00.7
Anong ganyan natatakot?
15:02.8
Suspicious na rin ako.
15:03.6
And sensitive kasi yung topic.
15:05.5
you gotta understand, mga kameta.
15:10.0
eto na yung recording
15:12.1
na inintayin natin.
15:13.8
tama naman si Caranza,
15:15.1
attorney Caranza,
15:15.9
na warrant of arrest
15:17.3
will just be the first step.
15:19.2
And the warrant of arrest
15:20.1
is not justice per se.
15:22.2
It's just a procedural step
15:27.2
what we're hoping to see is
15:32.1
bakit ang dami sa atin
15:38.2
ng mga taon na yan.
15:39.0
So, there has to be
15:40.4
a moral reckoning there.
15:42.2
And as far as justice is concerned,
15:43.9
there has to be also restitution.
15:46.2
Not only in terms of compensation
15:47.9
dun sa mga biktima,
15:49.9
taking care of yung mga victims,
15:51.7
yung mga bata especially,
15:53.1
but also in terms of
15:54.2
rebuilding yung mga institutions
15:55.5
na na-damage dito.
15:56.6
Especially yung mga kapulisan,
15:58.1
yung mga ibang ahensya
15:59.4
na involved dito.
16:00.2
There has to be really
16:02.0
or restitution of that.
16:05.2
the list is very long
16:06.8
and since yung ating
16:08.7
kasaluku na presidenta
16:09.9
ay not necessarily
16:10.7
isang Swedish social democrat
16:13.2
or progressive Bernie Sanders
16:16.3
we have to temper our expectations
16:17.7
in terms of the damage control
16:19.9
and the justice aspect
16:23.0
at least we're seeing
16:25.3
And parati ko sinisabi,
16:26.7
we should not be just
16:30.5
or naka-tunga nga.
16:31.4
We have to be part of
16:32.4
the conversation and process.
16:34.7
I always use my little voice here
16:36.7
because we're just being
16:37.9
interviewed all around the world.
16:42.7
the movement in the right direction
16:44.9
by the current president,
16:46.6
by the current administration.
16:48.5
And when it comes to politikos,
16:50.0
sabi nga ni Bernie Sanders,
16:51.0
you have to keep your legs
16:52.1
or foot close to the fire
16:53.5
because that's when
16:54.6
they're going to do the right thing.
16:55.7
They're not going to do the right thing
16:56.7
on their own terms
16:58.4
makakalkulate din mo nga yan.
16:59.8
Ayon natin banggayan ngayon ito.
17:01.1
Ayon natin banggayan ganyan.
17:03.6
pressure from the people.
17:04.8
There has to be pressure.
17:05.9
There has to be mobilization.
17:06.9
There has to be ingay.
17:09.2
Design way na yung ingay.
17:10.1
Kailangan natin yan para ma
17:11.3
ma-etsapuera yung
17:14.4
pero etsapuera yung
17:16.3
yung People's Initiative niya.
17:18.3
those are the things I'm looking at.
17:22.0
it's quite telling, no?
17:24.4
quote-unquote senator
17:26.8
dramatics move, no?
17:32.2
of course, it's not assured
17:33.1
kung makulong yan mga yan
17:35.0
or ma-arrest yan.
17:35.6
Ako, magdadrama yung mga yan
17:37.5
dapat handa na kayo
17:38.8
mag, ano yung response
17:39.9
once magdadrama-drama
17:41.4
yung mga yan, no?
17:43.0
biglang mag-wheelchair na.
17:48.2
alam nyo na yung kalakaran,
17:50.0
sa ating bansa, eh.
17:51.2
Marati tayong naawa
17:56.6
uling-uli na sila
18:03.7
sa ating mga institusyon,
18:07.3
dun sa mga biktima
18:09.1
ng mga nasa poder.
18:11.3
thank you very much,
18:13.3
and talk to you soon.
